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Vic Jefferson
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
565
   |
Posted - 2015.09.01 19:20:09 -
[1] - Quote
Considering the top two ships on zkill at the moment are Svipul and Sabre, by a significant margin, somehow I don't think small autocannons really need that much adjustment, as at least two of the ships they get fit on are either still over the top good, the right ship for the dumb meta we have, or some combination of those.
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Vic Jefferson
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
565
|
Posted - 2015.09.01 21:20:13 -
[2] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:*cough* heavy missiles *cough* heavy assault missiles *cough* torpedos *cough*
..don't mind me I have something in my throat.
These are actually not bad, all things considered, when they are used against appropriately sized targets.
The problem in general with the game at the moment is that there is not a good reason to ever undock or fly things which are 'appropriately sized'.
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Vic Jefferson
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
566
|
Posted - 2015.09.01 21:40:19 -
[3] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Vic Jefferson wrote:elitatwo wrote:*cough* heavy missiles *cough* heavy assault missiles *cough* torpedos *cough*
..don't mind me I have something in my throat. These are actually not bad, all things considered, when they are used against appropriately sized targets. The problem in general with the game at the moment is that there is not a good reason to ever undock or fly things which are 'appropriately sized'. Heavies are typically only used on Rapid launchers on BSs in order to get better application/dps than you'd get with torp/cruise. Most BCs and cruisers are typically used with rapid launchers.
Right, because if you fly something big and heavy, the safe assumption is that what you are up against is going to be one class lighter than you are, i.e. who else would be cool enough to undock something big any more?
While medium missiles and autocannons are in a terrible spot right now, there's two options. One is just buff them to be relevant in a fast moving world full of small things, the other is to to deal with the root cause and actually make big things worth flying, so that every big thing doesn't have to step its weapons down to be useful. Its a poor choice to just keep systematically buffing every weapon system to have crazy application.
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Vic Jefferson
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
566
|
Posted - 2015.09.01 23:57:43 -
[4] - Quote
Baali Tekitsu wrote:Medium missiles and launchers are garbage but thats a topic for another thread.
I'm surprised you think so. The same root cause is behind most of this, so I don't really see it as a separate problem. Why play whack a mole when you could play....um....er....whack a hippo?
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Vic Jefferson
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
567
|
Posted - 2015.09.02 18:40:21 -
[5] - Quote
Baali Tekitsu wrote:Im not entirely convinced that the speed creep is a entirely bad thing, many weapon systems have survived it/are now more viable than before, it resurrected Cruisers and it made long range medium guns together with their buff a more viable thing. Its just Projectiles that need a buff to keep up with the times.
Speed Creep is the single biggest thing making this game miserable at all levels of play. There I said it.
Small gang has degenerated into t3ds online - if you aren't this fast and this powerful, you have literally lost your place in the game. Brawling does not exist. It is absolutely hilarious that the description for Amarr has them pinned as hulking armor brutes, but every single one of their viable non BS ships is some combination of speed kiting or is best fit for shield - off the design goals much?
Large scale comps are hilariously risk-averse and non-committal. Slippery petes and MJD sniper BS - the moment you are
going to lose, you can disengage at almost no consequence. This is no fun for anyone.
On both levels, everyone being so kitey and manoeuvrable means you don't get visceral brawls, you get one or two things getting caught and the losing gang wisping away. The game with one second ticks and locktimes etc. was not made for cruisers ever going to the speeds they are reaching today - the game is just to clunky to be able to deal with the twitch factor required for catching things that fast. it's just no fun for anyone.
Then we get situations like this where only one or two weapon systems are adequate for the current meta, so by default this invalidates the other 5 or 6. That is simply not healthy. Then those weapon systems need adjustment only because the world they live in is sick and twisted. So they give medium ACs the requested buff - where does that leave blasters? In the trashcan, but no one cares because rails are till pretty good. Why fix individual systems when the real culprit is still at large?
End the kiting madness now.
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Vic Jefferson
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
571
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 18:30:05 -
[6] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Point is, Medium ACs may need a slight touch of love, but they're no where near as bad as this thread is putting them out to be.
Empirical data suggests otherwise. You just don't see many people flying stabbers or ruptures these days, where everyone and their alt are flying the heck out of Caracals and Cerberus.
It's not a single thing making them bad, i.e.:
A)The ship meta is a toxic mess of caustic goo that absolutely ruins anyone's will to fly in general, but when they do, their choices are limited to about 15 good ships. Abominations like the Orthrus should never have been.
B)Other weapon systems are too good.
C)Autocannons are just plain awful.
40% A, 30% B, and 30% C.
If you do not address speed creep, you are just going to play musical chairs with weapon systems.
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Vic Jefferson
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
571
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 19:07:46 -
[7] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:3) HAMs and HMLs need to be rebalanced to be more viable against cruisers
3)Cruisers need to be rebalanced so HAMs and HMLs are more viable against them.
FTFY.
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Vic Jefferson
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
571
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 21:15:08 -
[8] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Vic Jefferson wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:3) HAMs and HMLs need to be rebalanced to be more viable against cruisers 3)Cruisers need to be rebalanced so HAMs and HMLs are more viable against them. FTFY. Bad fix... HAMs and HMLs are almost unusable against frigs, which is the main purpose to why rapid lights are fitted to cruisers.. Well, that and fitting costs. Rebalance HAMs and HMLs and you now have a steady power increase, to which missile BCs become more viable in a fight as well.
HAMs and HMLs should be almost unusable against frigs, but they should be absolutely devastating to cruisers. Rapid Lights almost always being the better choice is a symptom of speed creep and meta for small things. RLMLs will always apply good damage regardless of what you encounter, whereas HAMs and HMLs will almost never do anything period. There used to be meaningful choices in fitting ships and who brings what to the gang, now there isn't really.
That's the problem with medium ACs - they aren't good at shooting under their hull class, and they aren't good at shooting their own ship class. I
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Vic Jefferson
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
580
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 18:50:03 -
[9] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Oddly enough, This shows a bit of a different story on what seems to be the best.
Start Date: 2006-09-17 20:10:00.
That's almost ten years of data. While impressive, things are not what they were 5 years ago. EvE U is also a learning corp, so their choices are going to be heavily tilted towards cheaper, easier to fly ships. They are also going to have a ship fit available for every race/ship class for every fleet, even if its a suboptimal choice.
I wish zKill and others had a more sophisticated and more detailed ship usage metric, but I'm not too unsatisfied with just seeing the top ten. It hasn't been the stabber or the rupture since I started checking every week or so, or the vagabond. The Caracal's spot on that chart is guaranteed via RLMLs and we all know it.
Truian wrote:One potential remedy would be to address ambit rigs.
Bandaid solutions are bad solutions, though the suggestion is thoughtful.
It would fix a LOT of weapon systems and make the game a lot better overall if they address speed creep. If they just buff weapon systems or given them bandaid modules and buffs, they just add to the current horror show.
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